SEATTLE (AP) - Most people talking about education dollars in Washington state these days are referring to the money being cut from the state budget for schools and universities.

But there's another discussion about education money happening in Olympia right now. This policy debate about redefining basic education and changing the way the state pays for schools will have more fiscal impact than any discussion about the state budget.

Education leaders, including state schools chief Randy Dorn, appeared Wednesday at a news conference and lobbied the state Senate to pass the House's education reform package before the end of the week.

Acknowledging the state's tough economic times, Dorn said now is the perfect time to reform Washington education despite the state's expected $9 billion deficit.

"We're either going to do this and mean it and move Washington back to the forefront of education leadership or we're going to be mediocre," he said.

A parent from Tacoma agreed.

Cheryl Jones, a member of the Black Education Strategy Roundtable, said the choice is spending more on education or putting more money into the juvenile justice system.

"Our children are going to end up in one place or the other," she said.

The basic education finance reform bill has an unassuming title - "Concerning the state's education system" - and a relatively small fiscal impact note attached - about $4 million for the next biennium.

But it would be the beginning of some major changes in K-12 education in Washington: a longer school day and more credits for high school students, preschool for low-income kids, all-day kindergarten, more fairness in the way the state passes out money to schools around the state, and more money for librarians, counselors and nurses.

The measure would be the first time the state's definition of basic education has been rewritten since 1979. This is important because the state constitution calls for ample funding of basic education and the definition sets the parameters for the education budget.

The reform effort is also connected to a lawsuit scheduled to be heard beginning in August. A coalition of school districts and education groups seeks a court order to require the state to pay the full cost of educating all the state's children to compete in the modern world.

The state spends about $15 billion on K-12 education in each two-year budget cycle - about 40 percent of the state's general fund - so the basic education finance reform bill could be considered one of the biggest ticket items on the legislative agenda this year.

Some have predicted the revised education system, which the proposal would phase in over the next seven years, would add $2 billion to the two-year state education budget.

The state uses sales, business and property taxes to pay 84.3 percent of what it costs to educate Washington's 1 million school children. The other 15.7 percent comes from local levies and some federal money, primarily for education of special-needs children.

Most state dollars go to teacher salaries. The state also matches local bond money for school construction.

Conspicuously absent from the Wednesday news conference was the state teachers union, which has opposed many of the education reform ideas floating around Olympia this legislative session.

At hearings on the measure, teachers said lawmakers should find a way to pay for education reform before making changes the state can't afford.

The Washington Education Association has focused its lobbying efforts on stopping the expected cuts in the next biennium budget that are expected to lead to thousands of teacher layoffs.

WEA representatives say it's not responsible to talk about education reform when the present is such a mess and they oppose spending $4 million to implement the changes when that money could be used to keep teachers on the job.

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The bill is House Bill 2261.